Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:14:38 -0400

I was reading @Mike Masnick ✅'s article called Some (Slightly Biased) Thoughts On The State Of Decentralized Social Media, and I realized something. @Mike Masnick mentioned decentralized IDs (DIDs) as one of the interesting technologies.

Zot Protocol already has nomadic identity, which is a different way to achieve a similar result. And people are working to add nomadic identity to ActivityPub, which includes support for DIDs.

If successful, that means that AT Protocol, ActivityPub, and Zot Protocol will all have a form of nomadic identity or portable identity. It would be interesting to see if that could work cross-platform and cross-protocol, especially when bridging becomes more prominent thanks to @Bridgy Fed and Friendica's support for both ActivityPub and AT Protocol.

The first step would be recognizing aliases (or clones, as they are called in Hubzilla). Cross-platform and cross-protocol syncing of clones could come later. But it would be nice if other platforms and protocols could recognize aliases and treat them as the same channel instead of separate channels.

There is a lot of talk about which protocol is better, but there are actually a lot of opportunities for each protocol to collaborate and interoperate.

Zot Protocol ActivityPub AT Protocol Commentary

Jeff Sikes

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:50:17 -0400

🔁 Repeated @Scott M. Stolz's Article

Bill Statler

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:13:45 -0400

And people are working to add nomadic identity to ActivityPub, which includes support for DIDs.

Currently exists in Streams; Mitra is working on it, but AFAIK there has not yet been a nomadic move between Streams <==> Mitra. The sad thing is, I don't know of any other Fediverse projects that are building on this already-working technology.

Okay, you probably knew that, but I wanted to shout about it for the rest of your audience.

Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:11:21 -0400

@Bill Statler On the fediverse side of things, I think the initial platforms that will fully support the concept of nomadic identity will be Hubzilla, Streams, Forte, and Mitra. And even that will be split between protocols.

There is the version in Zot protocol that Hubzilla and Streams uses. And there is the version in Nomad protocol that Streams uses. And there is the version that is being worked on in ActivityPub, that Forte and Mitra will use. I am hoping that Hubzilla will support the ActivityPub version and the Zot version.

But other platforms don't necessarily have to fully support it. Simply recognizing that aliases (clones) are a thing would be a huge step forward in interoperability.

Zot is the Third Party Candidate in a Race Between ActivityPub and AT Protocol

Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 18:56:09 -0400

@Mike Masnick ✅ (Mastodon) aka @Mike Masnick (Bluesky) wrote an interesting article called Some (Slightly Biased) Thoughts On The State Of Decentralized Social Media which stirred up some passionate discussions in this thread on Mastodon.

As someone who advocates for Hubzilla, which uses the Zot Protocol, it usually feels like we are a third party candidate in a popularity contest between ActivityPub and AT Protocol, or between Mastodon and Bluesky.

And I do have to chuckle when y'all mention "new and innovative features" that have existed in Hubzilla 5 to 10 years before you even started working on your variations. For example, nomadic identity has been in Zot Protocol before Bluesky even started. It might be older than Mastodon too, I am not sure. We even have federated single sign on using OpenWebAuth.

So, this has gotten me to thinking about why protocols become popular, and what is necessary to propagate ideas, philosophies, and systems. Compared to Hubzilla's long history, I am relatively new to Hubzilla and the social web, so I have the unique ability to compare what works and what doesn't between protocols, platforms, and their advocates.

A lot of interesting things to think about.

Zot Protocol ActivityPub AT Protocol Commentary

show all 21 comments

Bill Statler

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:25:27 -0400

I got a cynical laugh when Evan Prodromou told Mike Masnick "It was not my intention to make you feel good about your poor choices" for associating with the venture capitalists backing Bluesky -- when Evan is happy to associate with Meta.

Do we have a name for the Zot/Nomad zone? Maybe "Rediverse", in reference to Hubzilla's ancestor?

FenTiger

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:32:54 -0400

@Bill Statler I'll admit that I've been calling it the "Macgirverse" in my own notes. ;)

Jupiter Rowland

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:26:41 -0400

For example, nomadic identity has been in Zot Protocol before Bluesky even started. It might be older than Mastodon too, I am not sure.

Nomadic identity is older than Mastodon. By some four years.

Mastodon is from 2016. Nomadic identity was invented in 2011 and first implemented on Red in 2012. First implementation in a stable release was in 2013 when the Red Matrix got stable. Oh, and Hubzilla itself is from 2015; it pre-dates Mastodon by ten months AFAIR.

It's fair to mention that this Hubzilla channel which I'm writing from right now has had a nomadic clone since before the Twitter Migration and before Bluesky was launched.

CC: @Mike Masnick ✅ @Mike Masnick

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #NomadicIdentity

Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:34:02 -0400 last edited: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:36:41 -0400

The interesting thing about all of this is that I can analyze what AT protocol and ActivityPub are doing that works and what does not work, and then figure out a strategy for Hubzilla and OpenWebAuth.

I didn't mention Zot in the paragraph above, because I don't think we should promote Zot protocol as competitor to ActivityPub. I think of it as more of an alternative that can innovate faster, which can be used to put pressure on ActivityPub and AT Protocol to innovate. Since Hubzilla supports both Zot and ActivityPub, it can benefit from innovations from both protocols.

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done. Especially if you use them as case studies to learn from.

Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:35:09 -0400

Ultimately I would like all of the major protocols to be bridged, so we can all communicate with each other. Having multiple protocols competing with each other is a good thing, because it forces them to innovate or fall into obscurity.

As far as privacy and safety goes, instead of blocking entire protocols, the bigger threat is individual servers and individual users, who are bad actors. They need to be blocked regardless of protocol they run on.

Mike Macgirvin 🖥️

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:53:38 -0400

Streams bridges ActivityPub ids (both fixed and portable), Zot6, and Nomad identities. I never tried to federate with Bluesky because it's centralised and that frankly does not interest me.

Scott M. Stolz

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 22:01:18 -0400

@Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ We don't even have to worry about what AT Protocol is doing. Only the bridges themselves would have to translate between protocols. It would be something that @Bridgy Fed and Friendica (with its AT protocol addon) have to think about, not us.

Mario Vavti

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 03:17:35 -0400

@Jupiter Rowland red -> hubzilla was really only a rename of the project. There was no fork involved.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 05:03:44 -0400 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 16:51:51 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done.

If you would just start locking at it all from a different angle you could also come to a quid different concussion.

After all Hubzilla with all the included features and its architecture is not that much a "platform" which competes with "Mastodon and other larger platforms" but a decentralized community Content Management System.

The focus of a decentralized community CMS with social media capabilities is very different to a SM platform for just messaging or posting photos.

That is way I see Hubzilla playing in a quid different league - and there HZ is ahead of all others.

We can do things all other project which are subject to the Masnick article can't do - and likely never will because the focus is a different one.

Scott M. Stolz

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 05:29:14 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Hubzilla can be configured in a lot of ways, so it can meet a variety of needs. For example, it could be set up as a Facebook clone, or it could be set up as a blog, or it could be set up as a website, or it could be set up as a specialty app.

And when I say compete, I mean the "number of installations." I don't mean "copy what they are doing." Hubzilla will have a different audience, and that is a plus in my opinion.

But I do think the technology that is pioneered by Hubzilla and its predecessors should spread more than it has.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 06:48:49 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz

I do think the technology that is pioneered by Hubzilla and its predecessors should spread more than it has.

now is is a quid different statement than:

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done.

People having a hard time to understand what they get in their hands if they start digging into HZ. A compression to Masto, Bluesky & Co does not help to communicate the things what HZ is about.

Scott M. Stolz

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 08:42:34 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 We are still competing for users in the social media space is what I meant.

For example, if I set up a public hub and give it a user interface that is intuitive and inviting, I am directly competing with Mastodon and Bluesky and other platforms for those users.

And the number of users a platform has is one of the metrics in which platforms get measured.

Being different is part of competing with other platforms. If we weren't different, there would be no reason to chose one platform over another.

And, yes, a major issue is that we are not effectively communicating what Hubzilla is and can do.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 12:06:52 -0400 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 12:23:48 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz

We are still competing for users

i see this different. First of all i do not like to think of "users" but more of "stakeholders". and ... HZ does offer options for communities which have to be ready and sattelt for it all...

if I set up a public hub and give it a user interface that is intuitive and inviting, I am directly competing with Mastodon and Bluesky and other platforms for those users.

Are you ? - you will likely lose in this game...

And the number of users a platform has is one of the metrics in which platforms get measured.

measured by whom ? a software should be measured in terms of what it can do for you and not by the number of people who else use it. But true - the more stakeholders a software has, the more support for development can be given. It is quid nice to have the option so share with many other stakeholders. so yes - we looking for more stakeholders.

a major issue is that we are not effectively communicating what Hubzilla is and can do.

Yes - this is the main point - and if i shell tell you the true - i for my self still find it out just by using the software regularly - day by day... there is so much to learn for me... and very few people really have the overview over all the options, i think. HZ is a open system in contrary to a limited one as Masto & Co

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ wrote down a new and good documentation lately.... lots of pages to read and study... this does help a lot. Now we want to ask a TWITTER / X refugee to read all this? He will still just say thanks and likely will try an other system where i gets a feeling of having control over it all in 15 minutes. This is why i think we will never be competing with Masto or Bluesky. Or if we try there is just no change to win there.

HZ is more like LibreOffice or GIMP ... lots of time needed to get a Master.

Every try to sell a complex system as a simple thing will likely fail even if you polish the system up

HZ is for communities with special demands and institutions and individuals who like to grow their own tomatoes, rather than be a customer of wholesalers.

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 12:36:59 -0400 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 12:37:34 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Now we want to ask a TWITTER / X refugee to read all this? He will still just say thanks and likely will try an other system where i gets a feeling of having control over it all in 15 minutes

That's why I recently started an trial... with a self-created unofficial (German-language) Join Hubzilla page. In addition to the pure social media aspect, the main features of Hubzilla are presented there quite briefly and strikingly and there is a Join button that leads to a hub overview and a quick guide for registration.

And that's what I've been posting these days...

e.g. ‘Recommendation for a photo management? Of course: Hubzilla’ which led to the website by clicking on it.

Perhaps something similar should also be set up in English.

The point is to get the normal user to try Hubzilla as Fediverse access... and then you can inform such users (who must also receive appropriate support and help) about the further possibilities.

On the other hand, you could also lure users with the CMS capabilities (different target group) and give them the bonus of social media capabilities on top.

Scott M. Stolz

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 13:00:41 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

i see this different. First of all i do not like to think of "users" but more of "stakeholders". and ... HZ does offer options for communities which have to be ready and sattelt for it all...

Users can be stakeholders, and in this case are stakeholders. A person can be both.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 16:45:59 -0400

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

On the other hand, you could also lure users with the CMS capabilities (different target group) and give them the bonus of social media capabilities on top.

all what i see under #^https://hubzilla.hu/was-koennen-sie-mit-hubzilla-machen.html are the features of a cms with social media capabilities... if i'm just interested in just one of the features i will be better of if i pick a specialized fedi app - like e.g. pixelfed for a photo gallery

Scott M. Stolz

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 20:57:52 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 One possible way to deal with that is providing custom themes for specific use cases, and having an easy set up wizard when they first install Hubzilla.

And then have examples sites that are set up that way to demonstrate what can be done in Hubzilla.

Scott M. Stolz

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 21:04:11 -0400

To me, Hubzilla is more of an app I can build upon. Most of the existing addons and features are very simple, almost as if they are proofs of concepts in some cases. If I remember right, some things, like the articles addon, were actually intended to be a proof of concept, not a full app.

I look at Hubzilla as being closer to WordPress in the sense that you can post content in a variety of ways and you can extend it. What makes it powerful is OpenWebAuth, built-in decentralized social media, and the addon system.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Sat, 02 Nov 2024 05:40:45 -0400 last edited: Sat, 02 Nov 2024 12:20:00 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz

I look at Hubzilla as being closer to WordPress in the sense that you can post content in a variety of ways and you can extend it.

yes - Of cause HZ is all about centralized networking and something like WP is not.

And an other major difference is that for e.g. WP an ecosystem was build by many devs in the last decades and for HZ it was not.

This all makes a huge difference but if we look at some other basic basic concepts and architecture HZ is more closer to WP+BuddyPress than something to like Masto or FB.

HZ = WP+BuddyPress for decentralized networking
HZ = Joomla+CommunityBuilder for decentralized networking

The permission system, OpenWebAuth and nomadic identity are "just" consistent and logical features in this sense.

Scott M. Stolz

Sat, 02 Nov 2024 12:10:38 -0400

What is interesting is that a lot of the unique features of Hubzilla come from Zot Protocol, such as nomadic identity (clones), federated single sign on (OpenWebAuth), and access control (post permissions & private posts).

I think that is the real power behind Hubzilla, at least for now.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Sat, 02 Nov 2024 12:24:40 -0400

i see the power of HZ in the option to mange all kind of Content across servers and for doing that all in a appropriate way a permission system, OpenWebAuth and nomadic identity is needed

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech